The Frustration of Learning Counterpoint
This article talks about:
- My frustrations with learning counterpoint on my own from books
- Some facts and assumptions about learning counterpoint
- My first counterpoint lesson (hint: it involves your input to make it work)
Counterpoint Books
Music theory books can be a frustrating thing. Sometimes you come across a gem, that explains things well and is easy to read. For instance, when I first started reading William Caplin’s Classical Form, it was like a lightbulb going off in my head. Everything was clear and concise. After each chapter, I felt as if I walked away knowing more than the previous chapter.
Ah, if they could all be that way.
But now I am trying to teach myself counterpoint and unfortunately, things have not been so clear and concise. Trying to teach yourself counterpoint can cause you to run into several issues.
- Counterpoint is, at first glance, a technique that hasn’t been actively developed since around Bach’s time. Now, it has been used, and learned, but in terms of the pedagogy involved, many people still recommend using Johann Fux’s book. I get it! Bach learned from it, and so did Beethoven and Mozart and blah blah blah… I am sure with the combined brain power of the world, we can come up with some newer techniques.
- Newer books are written for people who are clearly studying at a university or with an experienced teacher. I can’t blame the authors for this. Most, if not all, are professors at major universities. This doesn’t help the man on the street.
- There are two different styles of counterpoint: Modal and Tonal. This causes problems as well, because the modal guys don’t really say how this is applicable to anything other than writing in the style of Palestrina. My gut feeling is that is not true, and I can think of one moment in Mahler’s 6th Symphony in which he is clearly using modal counterpoint to great beauty and effect. The tonal guys seem to be a bit more applicable to the kind of music I want to write, but there is not an integrated approach.
So where to begin?
Assumptions and Facts
In the army, we have a specific way of approaching planning. I won’t get into all the nitty gritty details, it can be extremely boring. One of the key features is we would list out our assumptions about an operation and the facts as we knew them, so lets do that.
Facts
- Counterpoint has been used by many composers, if not all of the greats, since Bach’s time. This will, I believe, continue to be true.
- Modal counterpoint is about the melody.
- Tonal counterpoint is about… the melody. If melody is not king, then you might as well just write block chords, right?
Assumptions
- Counterpoint is hard. Seems pretty obvious, but I am not too sure how factual it is. I am assuming it is hard because that is what I have been brought up to believe. But like most things, I think it will just involve practice and clear principles.
- The early stages won’t be very fun. I think this is usually true of most things that are worthwhile.
- The books will only take me about 10% of the way towards understanding. Most of the gains in knowledge will be from actually composing.
- Good skills in voice leading and harmony are key.
- The two leading figures in Counterpoint are Bach and Palestrina. I say this as an assumption, because there are about a million composers that I have not actually listened too, and I may enjoy someone else’s counterpoint.
So What?
Glancing back over the list, there are a few things I wrote, that I think can guide me on my plan.
The Books Will Only Take Me About 10% of the Way
As stated earlier, the books I have been reading are missing a key ingredient… a teacher. I could go out and find a teacher, but that defeats the purpose of this site, which is to help people along the way of teaching themselves to compose.
I think others reading about my struggle and hopefully finding the right path will help in their own struggles.
It’s About the Melody
For both modal and tonal counterpoint, it is really about the melodies. Their shape, figures, and overall sound make the piece. For modal counterpoint, it seems pretty obvious, as harmony as we know it didn’t really exist when modal counterpoint was being developed. Tonal counterpoint though is a tougher case, because the harmony is clearly very important. Still, the melody is what ties it all together, not the harmony.
Knowledge of Harmony and Voice Leading
To get by, knowledge of harmony and voice leading will be crucial, but I cannot assume that everyone has been through a year’s worth of undergraduate harmony and voice leading courses. Anyways, I am so rusty with realizing my figured bass, that it will be as if I never took the courses anyway.
The Early Stages Won’t Be Fun
If you have read any literature on becoming an expert, you will have heard about the 10,000 rule. This basically states that to become an expert, you will have to practice your chosen field for about 10,000 hours. The key ingredient in this is deliberate practice of difficult tasks that create specific improvement. That means that what you have to do should improve something specifically, or else you won’t really improve.
For instance, an amateur golfer goes to the driving range to improve his swing and hits 1oo balls. A professional golfer goes to the driving range to improve the way his left hand turns during his backswing, and hits 1000 balls.
I am trying to approach improving my composition skills in the same way.
This means the exercises probably won’t be particularly fun. They will also be repeatable and will have clear guidelines for improvement.
Lesson 1
With that last line being out there, my first lesson for myself and you will actually be kind of fun. I am going to track down more great counterpoint composers beyond just Palestrina and Bach.
One of the key’s to great composing, is becoming a great listener. If you never hear the possibilities, you’ll be stuck.
I will start off the list, but you, my loyal readers out there should help me expand it.
I am creating a playlist on youtube. If you leave a link in the comments section, i’ll add it to the playlist.
such a helpful content. so happy to be here.
Love your site. I studied Bach, counterpoint and fugue at university. Found it really frustrating that the lecturers were unable to describe the point where counterpoint becomes fugue. AND where counterpoint becomes just plain old harmony.
You’ve inspired me to dig out my text and notes – fresh eyes etc.
Nobody seems to have mentioned the Imitative counterpoint found through out Mozart. For me the most exciting to listen too. A great example is in the recapitulation of the first movement of symphony 40. Of course, what do I know, I’m just a listener 🙂
Artofcomposing has opened me a door to enter the musical composition. I have learned a lot and I hope to keep studying from you. Thank you so much.
Hi. What do you think about automatic analysis of counterpoint exercises, like on this site? I think this can help students to find mistakes in their exercises, if they have limited or no access to a counterpoint teacher. https://artinfuser.com/counterpoint
It won’t hurt. I started using a program called counterpointer in the past, and that was useful for seeing things like parallel 5ths and octaves.
I didn’t read all of the posts above, so perhaps someone already made this suggestion: Anything by D. Carlo Gesualdo. “Moro, Lasso, al Mio duolo” is very exciting.
Hey!
Just a little remark: you mention that Bach learned from Fux’ book.. I highly doubt that!
Fux published the book in 1742 and Bach died in 1750; plus, Bach is generally named the “father of counterpoint.”
Anyway, nice article!
All best,
Ben
Bach had the Latin edition, which was published in 1725.
Bach was 40 in 1725. Did he learn counterpoint at 40? Something tells me NOOOOOOOOO!
I did not say Bach learned only or first from Fux, just that he learned from it. It is well documented that Bach had a copy of the latin version and studied from it.
Jon,
I look forward to being a part of the list. I went to music school ages ago and want to spend my old age composing for pleasure. Cheers!!!
excuse me…the modal counterpoint is useful only for , what you said…medieval times? Ah, ok …so the Russian 5 , the Impressionists and a good 50 percent of Soundtrack composers and jazzists were doin the wrong thing
I don’t think you understood the article. I believe both modal techniques, and tonal techniques are important for all composers to learn. This was more about preparing mentally for the study of counterpoint, and thinking about the challenges, the available learning materials, and the usefulness of it.
On another point though, the method of teaching counterpoint for the last 50-100 years has been through written exercise, and it is actually less in line with Bach, the Russians and the Impressionists were actually taught.
Take a look at this dissertation which lays out a good case for traditional baroque counterpoint pedagogy.
https://urresearch.rochester.edu/institutionalPublicationPublicView.action?institutionalItemId=13844&versionNumber=1
Bach was not a fan of species exercises, and would generally have his own students first learn to play thoroughbass, then harmonize chorale melodies at the keyboard, before writing exercises.
Regardless, I wrote this article about 8 years ago, and my thoughts have developed significantly, so I’ll probably update it.
I had a wonderfully gifted old school Italian American teacher almost 50 years ago and we spent a little time of mainly 2 part counterpoint.
Now towards last chapter of life, I would like to go back to older ways with all the restrictions many here discard ( mistake on their parts – limitations are helpful )
Is there a way, a method, a book you recommend?
Thank you
John G
Actually, I am currently going through this book, https://amzn.to/2SUsY4R. It seems very promising and easy to follow.
How is this book? Did you enjoy it an did it teach you enough? Thinking of getting it myself
I really like it. Very clear explanations, and I think it quickly gets to the heart of traditional Partimenti teaching.
If you back that up with eventually reading the Robert Gjerdingen book, and The Art of Partimento, you’ll have a good technical understanding of counterpoint.
I think the Partimenti teaching method, basically gives you an intuitive feel of counterpoint, and so the whole process of composing becomes more pleasant.
I haven’t had a chance to practice the exercises from the book as much as I’d like yet, but I plan on going through the whole thing in the near future.
Just to be sure, what’s the name of the book. Your link brings me to a list of books just want to be sure I get the right one, cheers!
It’s called Music in the Galant Style, by Robert Gjerdingen.
I’m currently composing my second fugue.
The first one had the following problems:
*Voice Leading was not well structured hence
*Chords sounded so muddy
*If the voices were played separately, it would sound like music gibberish
It sounded good, but it’s still begging for improvement.
My problem is that as I continued to compose, I abandoned my “instinctive harmony” aka I’m not making harmony by the ear anymore, I’m so stuck with twisted or sometimes bastardized versions of triad chords that my harmony is no longer creative enough, always thinking in threes. But, I’m trying to compose my way to getting it bach *badumpt-tss* and be more creative with my harmony. (And also learn what I call deliberate dissonance)
I lack formal technique but really, I’m an amateur self taught composer who’s always having an inner orchestra play randome music in my head; it’s sometimes maddening but hecking useful.
The reason I write fugues is because I was stuck in a rut because I couldn’t think of anything for my musical, so I compose my way until I get a lightbulb for it. Counterpoint became a direction.
Do correct me if I’m wrong to associate the two with eachother.
My second fugue sounds alittle cleaner than the first one, but the problems of the former tend to pop up from time to time. I realized my problem is that I tend to focus on the vertical aspect rather than the horizontal. Thank goodness I found this website!
Composition improvement, here I come!
Bach is the greatest
Great information. Thank you for sharing your knowledge regarding chords, notes, techniques and more. Your article is useful to me. I am a beginner, I prefer Alfred’s Essentials of Music Theory book but your article gives me all the information which I want.
I am content with a kind of plagiaristic goal – to write a composition that sounds like
Bach or Haydn (I think Mozart is beyond possibility). For that reason, I am learning counterpoint,
and Gradus is very helpful.
I do believe it needs to become instinctive. and that takes a lot of
practice. I start with a good Cantus Firmus (Handel, Vanhall, Albinoni) and try to write good
counterpoint to that melody. I am slowly getting it, Gradus is a major help.
Contrary motion, as much as possible!
I also write counterpoint to my own melodies, but for now I learn more from using
melodies from great classical composers.
Don’t forget to practice improvisational counterpoint at the piano, and singing. It makes a huge difference in being able to feel how the counterpoint is working.
A great modern counterpoint piece is Moondog’s ‘Paris’ written for saxophones and can be viewed on youtube. It’s really quite stunning and brilliant actually in it’s design and movement.
Love your thoughts on composition.
Sir, I’m in a similar boat. I like to compose by intuition and / or listen intensively to a composer to try to figure out new techniques. I’ve been in a Chopin phase and while dissecting and analyzing his music I detected certain patterns that I researched. Turns out Chopin was a counterpoint junky and wiz. In his approach to counterpoint he swore by Bach (who I don’t really know that much about beyond the “hits”) and by Mozart. Now I’m trying to go deep on the topic, and I agree completely that the literature and even the web pages I’m coming across approach the topic as though everyone has a PhD in music theory.
And as for great and easily understandable theory books there is a reference I love called “Pocket Music Theory – A Comprehensive And Convenient Source for All Musicians by Keith Wyatt & Carl Schroeder published by Hal Leonard as a small paperback. It is VERY approachable and often a great starting point when investigating a topic.
Have you considered attending EAMA Nadia Boulanger Institute? It’s a bit like boot camp but the resources will get you to the essence of what counterpoint is about.
Things have moved beyond Fux ages ago. There are dozens of modern books that take a simpler approach. Alan Belkin (ex-professor) has a free counterpoint book on his website.
Let’s be simple about this: counterpoint is about combining melodies and writing lines that have melodic movement. The best thing a person can do in the beginning is think about bass-line writing. Learning to write a melodic bass-line combined with a melody takes you a long way. Practice is the key.
Hi Jon
Let me know when your course on counterpoint is up and running. I am all in.
so many great example to choose. Every thing from Der Kunst Der Fugue, or crab canon a 2 from the Musical Offering, Handel’s Messiah “Worthy is the Lamb”, Mozart’s Requiem double fugue Kyrie, Brahms Requiem Herr lehre doch mich. But for something fun and comic check out Giovanni Dettori’s fugues on tunes by Brittany Spears, Lady Gaga, Miley Cyrus 😉 https://youtu.be/u9xyYnHDHZM?list=RD2mVuwOKA3UY
I’ll let you know. My current focus is still orchestration, but I will probably finish tackling counterpoint after that.
May I suggest, as a very guitar-centric musician, the two-line contrapuntal jazz fingerstylings and fascinating lines of Jimmy Wyble. He was a guitarist in western swing bands, and played with small combo jazz groups, like Benny Goodman. His book on improvising two-line counterpoint solos over jazz standards is a missing link in contrapuntal composing. Bach, and many classical giants, were master improvisors, and Jimmy was a modern master of spontaneously ‘composing’ two line counterpoint during spontaneous guitar solos. Writing contrapuntal music is a worthy effort, but building up technique and chops to take solos over jazz standards in multiple contrapuntal lines is amazing.
Hi Drew , I am a guitarist / arranger also . I shall search out Jimmy Wyble . I still admire the lines of Ruby Braff and George Barnes. I shall look for the man first and then the book. Thanks for the pointer. Alan
Hi Drew , On a traditional Modal approach I am struggling through the book , ‘ Counterpoint, The Polyphonic Vocal Style of the Sixteenth Century’ .( Knud Jeppeson: Dover Puplications, New York 1992) It would be a help to find a tutor in the North West/ Midlands of England. Alan
Hello. I am self-taught in music theory and composing, just like you. Now 33 years old, at the age of 19-20 I decided that I would like to compose my own music, although not necessarily classical. I have studied from various textbooks on classical and jazz harmony, as well as on counterpoint, and am still studying. I have also read a few acoustics-related books, such as Helmholtz, in order to deepen my understanding on the laws of tonality and tuning systems (I have interest in this, as well as in sound synthesis).
Now, for counterpoint, I would strongly suggest “Preliminary Exercises in Counterpoint” by Arnold Schoenberg, which you can either download in pdf for free, or make a second-hand purchase (it is now out of print). I believe this is the best, the most useful counterpoint book a composer can read, written by a prominent self-taught composer. The book uses the species approach in tonal context. His books “Theory of Harmony,” “Structural Functions of Harmony,” and “Fundamentals of Musical Composition” are also highly useful from compositional perspective, without getting into many theoretical, style-specific details from the CPP, which is not as practical, in my opinion. Indeed, I remember a composer somewhere wrote “Theory of Harmony” is what he really needed in terms of harmony to compose, as the book (1) explains Schoenberg’s thoughts on the tonal system, and (2) gives, if I may put it so, the universal tonal rules for making strong/weak chord progressions, voice-leading, cadences, modulation, modal interchange, and even goes to the limits of tonality with extended chords, without many style-specific details, but with great comments by Schoenberg on why some rules from CPP exist, and how they could be broken.
Another good book related to tonal counterpoint is Kent Kennan, but I think Schoenberg is superior in equipping the composer with a broader linear, contrapuntal thinking for music of all kinds.
Kind regards,
Kamen
Thanks. This article was actually written a number of years ago, and since I’ve learned a good deal more counterpoint and feel much more comfortable with it. But the tips are good for other composers to read.
Last year I found a great book by De La Motte.
It’s main features are: it faces counterpoint from a historical perspective, therefore it teaches mainly modal counterpoint; it teaches to compose in counterpoint, not just do some excercises in abstract styles like two notes against one etcetera.
The cons are: the lack of excercises since a lot is left to the teacher (and it could be a problem since I’m trying to learn it on my own); that it teaches only two voices counterpoint and there is no trace of invertible counterpoint or specific rules on canons, only some hunces on imitative writing.
I find it a very good book, intersting and illuminating despite it’s cons.
And it costs 1/5 of the books I found on this page which doesn’t hurt.
Does anyone know this book anc can tell me something about it?
I am also reading Walter Piston’s one, which is less historical but has many examples from literature nonetheless.
It’s structured like this:
1 Melodic Curve
2 Melodic Rythm
3 Harmonic Basis
4 Harmonic Rythm
5 two part counterpoint
6 motivic structure
7 Three part counterpoint
8 Counterpoint in more than three part
9 Invertible counterpoint
10 Two part Canons
11 Other types of Canons
It has many excercises for every chapter.
It’s very used in Venice, where I study piano and costs about the same as De La Motte’s (30€ aprox.)
I’d like to have opinions on this too. 🙂
I think the main problem for me, is the book is in Spanish. I haven’t found an english translation of it yet. Seems good though.
Hi, do you have book recommendations (and pdf links if possible) to learn modal and tonal counterpoint on my own? I would thank harmony recomendations as well. Thank you very much, you have a nice webpage.
Some of the best are from Peter Schubert.
http://amzn.to/2aOYqy5
http://amzn.to/2aCR3X1
Hello,
Counterpoint is only 4 part writing where you would erase some notes. To be convinced, take a Bach 2 part invention and fill the gaps to get constantly 4 notes articulated. This is hard work but more long than difficult. justify each notes (suspensions, passing). Try to stick to I, IV and V when you can. This will end in a pretty hectic chorale but you will understand where counterpoint comes from. The reason why Bach would teach 4 voices setting first is because you need extremely good 4 voices “chorales” reflexes in order to NOT have to write everything in that way(the exercise I propose) all the time .
Counterpoint is NOT “only 4-part writing where you would erase some notes.”
While I don’t have a quick solution for you, I do have a suggestion: pick ten 20th century compositions you like. Beginning with the first composition, actively listen to the melody a few times. Really focus on it. Where does it ascend, descend, pause? Where does it hold a note? The next day, listen to the same composition again, only focus on the chords. Don’t try to analyze them too much, just listen and take them in. The third day, listen to the same composition again, focusing on the counterpoint. If it helps, read along in the score, if you have it.
You may wonder why I suggest listening to on part of the music, then setting it aside for the rest of the day. While you are going about other activities, your brain continues to learn. This is happening at a sub-conscious level, so you’re not even aware of it. The evidence of this becomes apparent when you are casually listening to some music and begin to recognize what the intervals between each note of the melody, the duration of those notes, and what chords are being played. When your brain develops this kind of understanding, it becomes effortless and natural. At that point, the music is part of you. This is the point at which you will experience a kind of liberation, a freedom that opens wide into your creativity. This intimate relationship with the compositions of others will naturally inspire your own composition in ways you never imagined.
Beyond favoring contrary motion and avoiding parallel fifths, (i like parallel fourths and octaves sometimes) i’ve pretty much discarded all theoretical dogma. I’m not saying that learning counterpoint is a waste of time. Abiding by traditional, time honored, conservatory sanctioned “rules” is a proven means of achieving balance and architectural integrity. Thinking in terms of figured bass has given me harmonic insights as well. Ultimately, and this is just my opinion, the rules are only syntax. A very stringent and superstitious one at that! If we are to call our work art, (instead of math) then we are Obligated to write what we hear. To quote or paraphrase Bruce Lee, “the ultimate technique is to have no technique”. I’m by no means trying to discouraging anyone from learning, or dismissing the importance of structure in composition, and Please don’t think I’m knocking J.S. Bach!
I think that to be able to truly understand counterpoint or any other compositional technique with that amount of rules one should understand the reasoning behind those rules so one can see those rules more as recommendations and less as rules.
For example this short article about a psycho-acoustical phenomenon can help explain lot’s of things than happen in counterpoint, and in voice leading in general. It may be a bit far fetched as it’s not very musical in essence, but as someone interested in science as much as in music I find it fascinating.
http://auditoryneuroscience.com/?q=topics%2Fstreaming-galloping-rhythm-paradigm
Thanks, I’ll check it out.
I am very interested on studying counterpoint on my own, gone over Fux’s and Schoenberg’s books , but I am having so much trouble finding my way through….
I feel your pain. I will be creating a counterpoint course in the next few months, to help others learning from home.
Thankyou for your suggestions. I’m just starting into the world of counterpoint, so this site makes great reading!
Glad to help.
Hi Jon,
I got this information somewhere on the internet about counterpoint.
Counterpoint will definitely help with your understanding of harmony, of how melodic lines interact.
What it won’t help you with is writing original melodies in the first place. That comes from simply learning, singing, playing (and studying) great melodies – which is what the Beatles (and every other pop/rock writer) did and does.
Original experimentation – improvisation, trial and error, etc – plays a part, of course, but successful songwriters are like magpies: they build up a huge vocabulary of melodic phrases, hooks and tricks stolen from their favourite music.
Question:
If that’s the case, then how comes today’s music (I’m talking about music in the billboard charts) doesn’t even sound close to the music of 50 years ago (music of the 1950s, 60s, and 70s)?
I listened to a song called #Selfies by the Chainsmokers and it is one of the dumbest things I ever heard. Who writes a song about selfies?
I think every technique you learn, harmony, counterpoint, orchestration, etc., goes into creating a well rounded craft. Most people don’t ever see the benefit from any kind of theoretical training, because they don’t stick to it long enough to have it make it’s way into the subconscious, where they don’t need to use much brain power on it. I can’t comment on “selfies” as I haven’t heard it, but there are definitely modern pop artists that are writing good melodies. I personally have always liked the music of Rufus Wainwright. I know he had some traditional piano training, but I imagine he listens to a lot of different music and internalizes it well enough to allow it to assimilate into his style.
I have found several videos that would be great additions to the playlist.
Segni, Ricercar XVI:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEDlmtaKn28&index=9&list=PLCE480D16F5DC6DD1
Froberger, Ricercar XIV:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbQ5TkUR0Bw&index=10&list=PLCE480D16F5DC6DD1
Lo, Nokia Ringtone Fugue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7ikbWwQ2dI&list=PLCE480D16F5DC6DD1&index=11
I found these in one playlist, and their are also several on the same channel that were composed by Stephen Malinowski, who also runs the channel.
Great stuff!
I think you’re making it way too difficult on yourself. Counterpoint is basically about writing independent lines; lines of melody that you can hear by themselves as clear melodies; that sound well when put together. To hear the lines independently, there are a few tricks – when one line goes up, the other goes down; if one is stomping along in minims, another can be bouncing along in a dotted rhythm, and so on. The FUX stuff just allows certain types of dissonance and not others. All of which can be discarded so long as you follow the rule, “if it sounds good”. That is, some chords are dissonant, but in the right progression they sound good. Basically, the best counterpoint is good harmony in which all the notes are part of nice, clearly independent lines. The FUX rules arent there to trip you up, but to give you simple choices. If you can write better music without them, then ditch them.
For some other good examples, Mozart Requiem Kyrie/Christe double fugue. A lot of Opera where you have singers singing different things. Beethoven (9th FInale, where the 4 soloists interwine and do their own thing. Basically anything where you hear two or melodies simultaneously.
This looks very promising
Thanks. I am planning a big set of posts on counterpoint in the relative future, as I am doing very in depth study on the subject.
If you’re open to counterpoint in other than Baroque and Classical genres, I recommend these two compositions, by jazz composer/arranger Hank Levy:
“Passacaglia and Fugue” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNsp2kMUmZ8)
“Quintessence” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uM9100wGyQ)
Hank wrote “Passacaglia and Fugue” for the Don Ellis Orchestra, “Quintessence” for the Stan Kenton Orchestra. Unfortunately, neither band plays in these recordings, nor does Hank’s original Towson State University jazz ensemble. But you’ll get the drift.
Hey Jon,
I just like to know if counterpoint is used to help make beautiful compositions. I heard the Beatles studied counterpoint. One thing I know about Music History is that composers like Bach (obviously), Beethoven, Mozart, and many others, all studied counterpoint and these are great composers. I’m studying counterpoint right now with a composition teacher because she wants me to learn counterpoint. I want to improve in my melody writing, so does counterpoint lead you to write beautiful compositions?
I think the question you are asking is not quite the right question. What is a beautiful composition? It is purely in the ear of the listener. A composition may be beautiful to you, and sound terrible to someone else.
Instead I would ask, will counterpoint improve my ability to realize the music that I hear in my mind? The answer then is yes, it will. Counterpoint is really about melody, and I believe melody is the key to great music. Counterpoint will give you a deeper understanding of melody and how melodies fit together to create music.
Your teacher is smart for making you learn counterpoint. Once you’re done, even if you never write a “traditional” counterpoint piece again, the abilities and perspective you will get from counterpoint will benefit your entire composing career.
Hi. I just bought an ebook called ‘countrtpoint and how to use it in your music’. Read the first few chapter and it looks quite accesible. The TOC quite promising and has morivated me to study cpt. I just thiught I share it:)
Thanks for sharing. I’ll check it out.
I would like to point out that practicing something to the effect of mastering it is only helpful if your practicing the right way.
Very true.
I’ve been studying two-part counterpoint for guitar over the last couple of years, concentrating specifically on more contemporary jazz applications. Classical counterpoint (whether two-, three-, or four-part) is laden with rules—burdensome lists of dos and don’ts—that can be tedious, especially to the musician who’s interested in more modern sounds, where sustained (sometimes unresolved) dissonances, multiple consecutive leaps, and other classical no-nos are not only allowed, but actually welcomed and embraced. I’ve found that jazz is the place to look to for guidance. Here are some great resources I’ve found for study of 20th and 21st century contrapuntal styles:
1. Jimmy Wyble’s books — These include “Classical Country,” in which he discusses his intervallic concepts (with lots of examples) and introduces his first six etudes; “The Art of Two-Line Improvisation” (Mel Bay), which has a short introduction showing some great interval ideas based on a hybrid diminished scale, then moves on to Etudes #7 – 25, & two Improvisations; “Solo Collection” (Mel Bay) features a few of the Etudes, but also has some nice titled pieces; “Concepts For Classical and Jazz Guitar” (Mel Bay) features a number of Wyble’s ideas and permutations. As an introduction to Wyble, check him out on YouTube where he’s playing in a small café. His style is very fascinating. Also, his former student/protégé David Oakes (now an educator himself) has an excellent website that features pdf and audio files of the first six etudes (long out of print) and a number of detailed lessons from his days of working as Jimmy Wyble’s aid at Musician’s Institute in California.
2. Another former Wyble student-turned-educator Sid Jacobs has an excellent counterpoint video/pdf lesson available for download at Mike’s Masterclasses online. His video looks at some jazz standards, Wyble concepts, Bill Evans harmony, and Bach’s lute music, among other things.
3. The last Wyble protégé is Argentinian guitarist Juampy Juarez, whose style and sound brings Wyble (who was already way ahead of his time) ideas into very modern and dissonant territory in his Contrapuntal Concepts video/pdf at Mike’s Masterclasses, and a Contrapuntal Improvisation book (available somewhere online as an ebook). He’s also applying atonality and polymodality in his approach to counterpoint.
4. I’m just ordering a book called “Improvisation for Classical, Fingerstyle and Jazz Guitar” by Paul Costello, which seems to have a bit of information about modern counterpoint peppered throughout; might be a valuable resource.
I studied music theory in college and learned classical counterpoint (laden w/rules) and enjoy the post-Wyble classical-jazz style much better. Here are some observations of basic concepts to concentrate on:
a.) Both classical and jazz counterpoint avoid use of consecutive octaves and perfect fifths (although Juarez uses side-slipping to great effect).
b.) Learn the four common types of motion: parallel, similar, oblique (pedal point), and contrary.
c.) Learn the five species: 1st (1:1 ratio), 2nd (2:1 ratio), 3rd (3:1 to 16:1 [or more] ratios), 4th (essentially 2:1 w/suspensions), and 5th (florid counterpoint; free use of rhythms and ratios in both voices, cantus firmus and counterpoint).
d.) Modern jazz counterpoint allows consecutive leaps in the same direction and liberal use of dissonance, but it’s still very useful to have an excellent understanding of good voice-leading and resolution.
Hope this helps. I’m still on my journey. Wyble’s Etudes are a challenge! Your fingers will be asked to do things they’ve never done before—on both hands (thanks to his application of a George Van Eps technique). It’s all about perseverance.
cheers…i stumbled upon your site while researching the term counterpoint with regard to music theory…i’d never heard the term before…thanks for your efforts.
-rB
It is my pleasure. I feel this stuff is important for the world to know.
I don’t know if this applies hear, but Stravinsky’s Octet(1923) uses “linear counterpoint”, a third form of counterpoint that calls for even freer moving voices. This form completely disregards the harmony. I don’t know if this is what you’re looking for, but I’m suggesting you add it to the playlist. Also, Mozart’s best form of counterpoint is Symphony 41, Jupiter, 4th movement.
Jacob. I just finished listening to the Octet. Very nice. I’ve taken a break from worrying too much about counterpoint for now. I’ve been focusing just on single melodies, learning the ins and outs of controlling one line alone. Once I feel I’ve go that down, I’ll probably get back into counterpoint.
I have an idea. I studied at university a graduation in graphic design and the way I learned do draw something that is good for me was to understand the gradual developping of the drawing of children and the analogy with the developping of perspective and painting in the medieval age to renaissance and in the same time I studied the theory of visual composition based on Gestalt psychology. I have studied and sung gregorian chant for some years and I made some compositions for singing in portuguese that have the same modal structure of the original. I think to advance and compose some compositions with the method of centonization (patchwork with modal excerpts, a medieval technique in gregorian composition), later add oblique movement with an extra voice (in 5ths, 4ths or 8ths) and later mix with some parallel movement with 3ths, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and octaves (organum), later mix with some contrary movement ascending x descending (organum), all of this “organum” with each note in a voice corresponding to each note in another voice, all with the same-duration . Later I want to add a third voice and later to use rhythmic modes, few possibilities of some rhytmic figures combined in a way that all combinations have the same duration. Later to try canons combined with some parallel movement of 3ths and 6ths overlapping. And so on. Excuse me if my english is bad.
Hi Jon,
I came across your How To Compose Music 101 on YouTube and that lead me to your web page. I like what you are doing for people and wish you well in your composing efforts. When I was younger (I am soon to be 69) I was passionate about music, first flamenco guitar then classical piano then trying to figure out how classical music works. I got into a masters program in music in graduate school–they waived the undergraduate degree.
I was there for about nine months but dropped out because I didn’t think anything I was learning had much value. I did have one good teacher. He had traveled around Hungary with Bela Bartok collecting folk music. I would be writing something and get stuck and would ask his advice and he would say something like “Brahms had a similar problem in such and such a work. Why don’t you look to see how Brahms solved the problem.” I found that advise to be the most valuable thing I learned.
I am not sure that the left brained approach to music that is taught in school really helps. I used to read large amounts of theory books but found just looking at scores much more helpful. I read once that when someone took a composition to Brahms that he covered up everything except the melody and the base. I thought about that for quite awhile and realized that that is what moves the music through time. Try looking at music that way–strip off everything except the functional melody notes and the functional base notes and I think you will learn quite a bit. Another idea is to take a piece of music, circle the critical melody and bass notes then write a different composition using these notes as an underlying structure. These two idea have helped me more than anything I ever learned in school.
In time, I came to understand that while music is very profoundly moving, it is really nothing but patterns. Some people, those with genius, are able to create new patterns that move other people deeply and so they are remembered. You will only be “remembered” if you can do this. Once you get so you feel you can compose then start altering the parameters of the music and try to develop your own style. If you always use a tonal alberti bass your music will sound like something written in the classical period.
Also look in depth at composer’s works and you will find all sorts of technique that you would not guess is there. Debussy is credited with moving seventh chords in parallel motion (a mainstay of his style) but I found Chopin in one of his Mazurkas moved seventh chords in parallel motion! A friend told me once there is a work by Mozart that sound atonal. So perhaps Debussy, who loved Chopin, came across the parallel sevenths and incorporated them into his style.
I don’t do anything with music anymore, but my way of working using a melody and a bass (learned from Brahms) let me to the stock market (price and volume). I study it like I did music and find it totally fascinating and financially rewarding.
I hope the above might help you in some way. Keep up what you are doing and keep sharing what you learn with others.
Take care,
Herb Klug
[email protected]
Herb,
Thanks for the excellent advice. I have been working much more with music recently than with theory books, although I must admit that I still dabble in the theory more than I should. But as Homer Simpson once said, “Cold turkey is not as delicious as it sounds.” I will definitely try out removing all aspects besides the melody and bass. I guess I am still in the stage right now where I am trying to assimilate past composers more than innovate in my own work. I come from a background of playing quite a bit of jazz music and I also loved the saying from Clark Terry, “Imitate, Assimilate, Innovate.” So I guess in reality, I am more in the imitate stage. It seems to me, what makes the greats great, is that they make it through all three stages, but no one can really skip the first two.
I look forward to hearing from you in the future, and for goodness sake, start composing again!
Jon
its good to see some other people in the same boat as me!
Its good for me as well. I am still chugging along slowly but surely on counterpoint, but so far, I haven’t made any breakthroughs yet, to where I feel I can really talk about it with any authority. When I do, believe me, you will hear about it.
I came across this website googling “the best counterpoint method” and found it fascinating. I wasn’t aware there were so many people around who actually tried to learn composition (formal composition) on their own, sounds like relief to me 😛 I’m learning both harmony and counterpoint simultaneously at the moment and though it involves some serious brain damage it also helps a lot to develop some kind of sixth sense for knowing how to apply that knowledge in your compositions and not get stuck in the theory, which is, I guess, what happens to a great majority of students. It kinda works out for me.
Here’s some of the books I read (most of them for the 100th time):
“Tratado Primero: De la armonía” – D. Hilarion Eslava (don’t know if there’s a translation for that one)
“Practical Manual Of Harmony” – Nicolai Rimsky-Korsakov
and for counterpoint (as well as harmony) I found what I consider the best method: Michel Baron. Google Michel Baron’s website and you’ll find lots of articles as well as complete lessons for Harmony, Counterpoint, Orchestration, etc. They are available in various languages and for harmony it focuses his excercises in Henri Challan’s “380 basses et chants donnés”.
I’ve somehow managed to pull some serious 4-part florid into a couple of harpsichord sonatas that I’m writing. It’s very hard to get the counterpoint to work in an otherwise or previously non-contrapunctual piece of music like some of the best Domenico Scarlatti’s sonatas. It’s even harder in my case I think, because I started studying “real” music very recently and I’m 25 years old. So in addition to my harmony and counterpoint studies I have to keep up with my reading and writing skills as well as my keyboard playing skills which are both superficial. Good news is that I’m doing all that by myself, I never took one lesson in my life. Before falling in love with music I only played electric guitar, also self-taught. Greetings from Uruguay!
I am on the journey of self study myself and I found Fux a great resource in learning counterpoint. As others have said if it was good enough for the masters it is good enough for me. I also have done some work with Counterpoint in Composition by Saltzer and Schachter. It is nice to find others who are one the self study path.
Hey Rich,
I am finding more and more value, in releasing one rule at a time, and learning by making mistakes. I actually purchased a program recently called Counterpointer. You can check it out at http://www.ars-nova.com/cp/. Originally, when I bought it, I found it a little frustrating, and felt the process of counterpoint wasn’t really sticking in. After using it for a while now, I find that it is really helping a lot, because it immediately points out your mistakes.
I’ve looked at the Salzer book and I would love to get it, but I am forcing myself on an information diet, because I tend to get too many books on a subject and not really absorb any of them.
Ernst Krenek published a small book on what is basically 12-tone counterpoint, although not strict style. I found its conciseness helpful. Also, Schoenberg wrote a nice introduction to counterpoint. It’s pretty ‘wordy’, like his ‘Harmony’ book, but has lots of helpful bits. Paul Hindemith also wrote several more up to date treatments of harmony and counterpoint. His second book focuses on two voice writing, but it covers it thoroughly in a more contemporary style. [His ‘Elementary Training for Musicians’ is good to check out as well. The scary part is he expects you to be competent with it before using his other works. I’m not sure that is really possible myself!] Anyway, like you I am trying to learn (or relearn) on my own. Most of the books I’ve seen (and own) have little to offer that is not in these three and Salzar’s book. Like you say, it’s more a case of self-examined ‘doing’ than in in-depth ‘reading’ that results will be found.
It is comforting to know that Haydn is said to have studied counterpoint without a teacher. He laboriously worked through Fux’s book ensuring he had mastered everything. If Haydn could do it, we all can if we work hard!
I am currently working through the exercises in the Gradus- and it is going better than i thought it would. However, I am not sure how I can use all the strict rules in my compositions.
Michael,
Thanks for the encouragement. I have to admit, I put the counterpoint down for a while. But I am back at it in full force. I am using several books, to try and get different viewpoints. First, Fux is on the reading list, because I figure if it was good enough for Bach, Beethoven, Haydn and Mozart, not to mention tons of others, then it is good enough for me. Something about the Socratic way it is written is just appealing to me.
Next, is Jeppesen’s book, “Counterpoint”. What I am finding is it takes about two readings per section to really get down to the meat of what is being said. Finally, I am rounding it out with “A Practical Approach to 16th Century Counterpoint” by Robert Gauldin. He doesn’t take a species approach, so it is just a different point of view.
As far as practical goes, the Fux is simplest, in terms of the way he describes things, which lets you get down to practicing more counterpoint. But Jeppesen’s book is great for really understanding the style of Palestrina. I plan on doing a big post about my progress in a little while.
Hi , I was googling 20th century ctp and I came across this blog. I am also a composer teaching myself but I did go. To college and studied ctp and still have no glue in how to use it in my own music. I studied bach s ctp and I recently became curious about rebsissancd ctp because of the way it glows freely it seems more free. There is a good book by r o Morris that gives really good hints but it’s not the same as studying with a teacher. A good teacher I mean , they are scarce. I don’t like Palestrina because he came after the counter reformation I prefer josquin desprez , Victoria, Thomas Tallis , hildegsrd of bingen. English composers were masters of rhythmic intricacy In the music. I also like Marin marais a lot. His Pieces for viola da gsmva go right to your soul.
Thanks Sami. I’ll check them out.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Theodopolis I recently came across this channel. He has recordings of Marcel Dupre improvising a passacaglia and fugue, and a passacaglia and double fugue. I think that it’d be helpful for composers to understand that (at least for me) many of their best musical ideas come from improvising.
Also, another recently discovered gem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epccUf3tMWo The fugue that constitutes this movement is powerful and moving (and teaches that fugues can be effective musical devices to convey emotions (something I never realized)). Keep up the good work with this awesome site.
Jeremy
Hey! I love your site. I wish everyone as knowledgeable as yourself was as helpful. Also, I’m far from an expert on Counterpoint, but, I think a great example is Pachelbel’s Canon in D, as it (I think) delves into traditional canon writing, as well as chord articulation, and the different species of counterpoint. Furthermore, on youtube someone posted an introduction to counterpoint series of videos and a video on fugue writing, which may be helpful if you decide to add a chapter on counterpoint in the ebook you’re working on.
the channel is: http://www.youtube.com/user/artofcounterpoint/videos
Added Canon in D to the playlist.
I’ll check out the video series. Thanks.
Song without words # 1 is great. I like it very much. Michelle